Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localisation

Can you supply specific examples of where these naming conflicts appear, as my system uses "Trash" in all cases as far as i am aware

Could you provide a screenshot of the problem?

Sure,

The inconsistencies are shown as specific examples in the screenshots attached.

It's worth noting that Wastebasket is British English, I believe in the U.S. then it's Trash + Deleted Items. I would recommend that "Deleted Items" is replaced with "Wastebasket" or "Trash" everywhere (easier to visualize).

Assigning to the English (UK) Translators. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution> says that Ubuntu in UK English should use either "rubbish", "Deleted Items", or "Deleted Items folder". But calling a folder "Deleted Items" is an oxymoron: if the items were deleted, they wouldn't be there at all.

I suggest just using "Trash" consistently. It's much shorter than any of the alternatives, it's less work for the translators, and it puts an end to the situation where a partly-translated interface comically disagrees with itself. I think these are all the strings that need fixing:
<https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?search=trash>
<https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/gvfs/+pots/gvfs/en_GB/+translate?search=trash>

The reasoning is sound, but in the UK we don't have "trash" or "garbage"; we
have "rubbish". Therefore settling for Trash would be a little inaccurate.
How about a "Bin" or "Rubbish Bin" instead?

On Dec 13, 2009 2:07 AM, "Matthew Paul Thomas" <email address hidden> wrote:

Assigning to the English (UK) Translators.
<https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution> says that
Ubuntu in UK English should use either "rubbish", "Deleted Items", or
"Deleted Items folder". But calling a folder "Deleted Items" is an
oxymoron: if the items were deleted, they wouldn't be there at all.

I suggest just using "Trash" consistently. It's much shorter than any of the
alternatives, it's less work for the translators, and it puts an end to the
situation where a partly-translated interface comically disagrees with
itself. I think these are all the strings that need fixing:
<
https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?search=trash
>
<
https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/gvfs/+pots/gvfs/en_GB/+translate?search=trash
>

-- Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626 You received t...

This issue is the result of an ill-conceived (and I take partial responsibility for this) and inconsistently implemented policy.

The problem we face is that different upstreams have different names for their waste receptacles. To take GNOME and KDE (the largest desktop projects) as a reference:

  * http://live.gnome.org/BritishEnglish
  * http://l10n.kde.org/team-infos.php?teamcode=en_GB

As you can see, GNOME uses "wastebasket" and KDE uses "wastebin". So if we leave the strings untranslated we're going to see an inconsistency.

Using "Trash" is ill-advised for the following reasons:

  * we would have to manually rename the "wastebasket" and "wastebin" references from upstream
  * we would be introducing yet another synonym for the same thing
  * "Trash" sounds foreign (if you disagree, you can always use en_US)

Having lived through and participated in the debates that introduced the "Deleted Items" option, I now think the best way forwards is to fix things upstream. The KDE and GNOME choices are already prevalent, so I suggest that we work with the translation teams from both those projects and encourage them to agree on one. By fixing it upstream, we benefit other distributions as well and eliminate the need for the Ubuntu en_GB team to do any work.

Reply to #9:

"Rubbish Bin" is my personal preference. It feels like an en_GB term, and it is similar enough to the widely-seen "Recycle Bin" to be easily understood. However, it does add yet another name to the mix.

Reiterating my last post (#10), I think that this should be fixed upstream. Anything done within Ubuntu would require constant maintenance from the en_GB translation team.

Being on the GNOME en_GB team, I feel as if there is nothing broken about "wastebasket". "Deleted items (folder)" is too clumsy a term. I'd be all for discussion with the KDE en_GB team about using a cross-desktop term however.

The only thing broken about the term "wastebasket" is that it's not a term in common use in the UK. "Bin" and "Recycle Bin" are the two prevalent terms in homes and offices I've been in, with "Rubbish" being what you put in them. Nobody I know uses the term "items" when referring to rubbish.

I'd be absolutely willing to change GNOME terminology to "Bin" if I could get agreement with the other desktops and the rest of the team.

The British National Corpus (BNC) is a 100 million word collection of samples of written and spoken language from a wide range of sources, designed to represent a wide cross-section of British English from the later part of the 20th century, both spoken and written. <http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/>

Unfortunately, the BNC Web site's search function does not seem to distinguish between parts of speech. For example, <http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=trash> returns 219 occurrences of "trash", but these are a mixture of nouns, verbs, and adjectives.

Fortunately, the BNC is collated at <http://www.kilgarriff.co.uk/bnc-readme.html>, where parts of speech are distinguished. Using the "all.al.gz" list <http://www.kilgarriff.co.uk/BNClists/all.al.gz>, we find:
* 1 occurrence of "rubbish-bin"
* 9 occurrences of "wastebasket"
* 14 occurrences of "wastebin" (and 1 of "wastebins")
* 150 occurrences of "trash" as a noun, plus 49 more where it was unclear whether it was being used as a noun, a proper noun, or a verb.

The collated list does not include non-hyphenated phrases, but going back to the main BNC Web site we can see that "rubbish bin" occurs 42 times in the corpus <http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=rubbish+bin>, and "recycle bin" doesn't occur at all <http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=recycle+bin>. ("Deleted items" is, as expected, completely absent too.)

From this I conclude that "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin", "wastebin", or "wastebasket".

Mpt, you're a star.

I think this bug is triaged now.

I think that search is flawed. "Trash" is very rarely used in spoken UK English when referring to "Rubbish", the only time I can think of the word "trash" being used is reference to something like a TV show, or book e.g. "That book was trash" but even that itself is a rarity because I believe quite an old fashioned usage of the term.

You'll note that in that "rubbish" as a term occurs 2257 times, and "bin" 682. These are separate words normally spoken and written without hyphenation, which would explain why the hyphenated version only occurs once.

Kazde, I would ask you for data to back up your assertion that "trash" is rarely used in spoken UK English, but it doesn't even matter, because (except for blind users) the Ubuntu interface is in written form. Also you seem to have missed the part where the non-hyphenated phrase "rubbish bin" occurs only 42 times.

(Kazade, I meant. Sorry for the misspelling.)

Here's some other statistics using the search (I see what you are saying about the mixture of nouns, verbs and adjectives though) including the words when used together without hyphenation (e.g. "rubbish bin")

http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=rubbish => 2196
http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=trash => 219

http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=rubbish+bin => 42
http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=trash+can => 11
http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=trash+bin => 1

http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=wastebin => 13
http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=waste+bin => 21

http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=waste+basket => 5
http://bnc.bl.uk/saraWeb.php?qy=wastebasket => 7

In the UK, "rubbish" is the equivalent of the U.S. sounding "trash", they are even used in the same contexts. Comparing "rubbish" to "trash" would be a fair comparison, as it's the same thing. As would be comparing "rubbish bin" or "dustbin" to "trash can".

Comparing "trash" to "rubbish bin" is comparing two different things (the items vs the container they go in).

That said both "rubbish" and "trash" imply a certain finality about the action, you don't go digging in the rubbish to get something back, but a "bin" is a pretty generic term for a container (e.g. bargain bin, loony bin), I'd argue that "Bin" would be far more fitting than "Trash" or "Rubbish", like Popey said, the rubbish is what goes in the bin.

The OED (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/trash?view=uk) says the Trash is North American, as is trash can (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/trashcan?view=uk). Rubbish (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/rubbish?view=uk) is defined as (in this context) "1 waste material; refuse or litter." and a bin (again in this context) is (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/bin?view=uk) "1 a container for rubbish."

I normally stand by the OED and would in this case. I'd say it should be "Bin" or maybe "Rubbish Bin" in en_gb

Guys, can we agree that having one name across the whole interface, even if its correctness sparks some controversy, is better than having two different names, both controversial?

Yes we can agree that much. There seems to be a general consensus among the UK people in this thread that "Rubbish Bin" or "Bin" would be suitable. "Trash" would be better than the inconsistency we have now, but it's not really the term we use in British English.

I realise that gnome-common isn't correct, but it's the best I can do.

I agree that the most important thing is to stick with a single consistent term. That said, I'm not sure about 'Trash' and think 'Wastebasket' is the better term.

The criteria for selecting this term shouldn't just be relative popularity or familiarity. It should also be that it communicates the meanings we want the term to communicate.

The whole idea of the Trash/Wastebasket is that it is a temporary receptical which is emptied at a later date, and which items can be retreived from. Wastebasket suggests a waste paper basket; the kind of thing that lives under a desk. Things can be easily retreived from a wastebasket. Trash suggests something different. Trash is general refuse - the bin in your kitchen or by your back door. It isn't easy or common to retreive things from your trash.

'Wastebasket' communicates the functionality we are trying to describe better than 'trash', therefore. The semantics of these two terms can be easily seen by doing a Google image seach for each one.

The major thing we need to aim for is consistency across all environments (including Gnome and KDE). I personally don't care as I disable the Bin (I'm old style Unix - when I delete something I expect it to be deleted), but I really dislike the Americanism of "Trash".

Is there any easy way to poll the current en_GB users (or those who care enough to respond to a poll)? Once this has been done we can make an upstream decision and have it fixed there.

Please change the description back.

It's simply not true that the word 'trash' is in common use in UK English for this context. It is a term from American English and is just not appropriate in a GB translation.

I think that most people would agree that the OED is a reliable source of information on this. So I quote from:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0878770#m_en_gb0878770

    *
      1 chiefly North American waste material; refuse
    *
      cultural items, ideas, or objects of poor quality:if they read at all, they read trash
    *
      2 North American a person or people regarded as being of very low social standing:clubs patronized by rock trash

In both contexts it is referenced as North American. The correct UK term is almost certainly Rubbish.

You could say that the assertion that Trash is used in Britain is utter rubbish.

Sorry.

Trash is a term very rarely used within the United Kingdom. It is very common to called the items themselves "rubbish" in such a phrase as "this can belongs in the rubbish". In reference to the folder however, as wikipedia[0] points out, in place of trashcan the British normally use the term rubbish bin or more accurately just "bin" colloquially. It is much more accurate to call the wastebasket the rubbish bin in regards to British English translations.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United_Kingdom#T

Can I push for a decision on this ASAP, please? Not having a consistent naming convention causes problems for people doing user assistance (docs etc.), and this discussion has gone on for far too long. A native British English speaker should make the decision; having a non-native speaker decide (US English or otherwise) is inappropriate.

If no-one is prepared to make a decision, feel free to assign this to the docs team and we can survey some users (I'm British, so I'd probably do it).

I'd be happy top help organise such a survey (also a brit).

I think the general consensus among native British English speakers in this report is that "bin" or "rubbish bin" are suitable terms. e.g. "Move to the rubbish bin", "Empty the rubbish bin" etc.

@Phil , I had emailed Martin Meredith, a couple of weeks ago, to take a decision on this bug. But havent heard back from him yet.

There seems to be no consensus on this. Let's just pick one and get this fixed for Maverick :-)

Assigning to docs team as per Phil's suggestion

@Phil , I had emailed Martin Meredith, a couple of weeks ago, to take a decision on this bug.
But haven't heard back from him yet.

There seems to be no consensus on this. Let's just pick one and get this fixed for Maverick :-)

Assigning to docs team as per Phil's suggestion

If anything was decided, I could probably get this fixed for GNOME 2.32.

Vish,

I'm new to the Ubuntu Docs group. I was just assigned this new task with you
guys, but I'm not sure how to get this started, or where to log in. I was
trying to find someone under the Ubuntu mentoring program. Any information
you could off I would appreciate!

- Bryant

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Vish <email address hidden> wrote:

> @Phil , I had emailed Martin Meredith, a couple of weeks ago, to take a
> decision on this bug.
> But haven't heard back from him yet.
>
> There seems to be no consensus on this. Let's just pick one and get this
> fixed for Maverick :-)
>
> Assigning to docs team as per Phil's suggestion
>
> ** Changed in: ubuntu
> Importance: Undecided => Low
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
>
>

Bryant,

It was sent to the Docs team in general -- not you specifically. I'm new
also and was just as confused when I first got the email :)

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Bryant Lippert <email address hidden>wrote:

> Vish,
>
> I'm new to the Ubuntu Docs group. I was just assigned this new task with
> you
> guys, but I'm not sure how to get this started, or where to log in. I was
> trying to find someone under the Ubuntu mentoring program. Any information
> you could off I would appreciate!
>
> - Bryant
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Vish <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> > @Phil , I had emailed Martin Meredith, a couple of weeks ago, to take a
> > decision on this bug.
> > But haven't heard back from him yet.
> >
> > There seems to be no consensus on this. Let's just pick one and get this
> > fixed for Maverick :-)
> >
> > Assigning to docs team as per Phil's suggestion
> >
> > ** Changed in: ubuntu
> > Importance: Undecided => Low
> >
> > --
> > Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> > You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> > Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
> >
> > Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> > Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> > Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
> >
> > Bug description:
> > The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as
> both
> > Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> > the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also
> trash:///
> > in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can
> be
> > seen in #115661 also.
> >
> > This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> > changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
> >
> > -----
> > Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> > "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> > "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> > -----
> > (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards
> and
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> > comment #8.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
...

Ryan,

Thanks for the clarification. I have launchpad set up, and I think
everything is good to go. How can I help with this bug?

- Bryant

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Ryan Hoover <email address hidden>wrote:

> Bryant,
>
> It was sent to the Docs team in general -- not you specifically. I'm new
> also and was just as confused when I first got the email :)
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Bryant Lippert
> <email address hidden>wrote:
>
> > Vish,
> >
> > I'm new to the Ubuntu Docs group. I was just assigned this new task with
> > you
> > guys, but I'm not sure how to get this started, or where to log in. I was
> > trying to find someone under the Ubuntu mentoring program. Any
> information
> > you could off I would appreciate!
> >
> > - Bryant
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Vish <email address hidden> wrote:
> >
> > > @Phil , I had emailed Martin Meredith, a couple of weeks ago, to take a
> > > decision on this bug.
> > > But haven't heard back from him yet.
> > >
> > > There seems to be no consensus on this. Let's just pick one and get
> this
> > > fixed for Maverick :-)
> > >
> > > Assigning to docs team as per Phil's suggestion
> > >
> > > ** Changed in: ubuntu
> > > Importance: Undecided => Low
> > >
> > > --
> > > Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> > > You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> > > Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
> > >
> > > Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> > > Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> > > Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
> > >
> > > Bug description:
> > > The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as
> > both
> > > Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items'
> but
> > > the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also
> > trash:///
> > > in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this
> can
> > be
> > > seen in #115661 also.
> > >
> > > This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix
> simply
> > > changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
> > >
> > > -----
> > > Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> > > "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> > > "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> > > -----
> > > (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards
> > and
> > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> > > comment #8.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> > You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> > Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
> >
> > Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> > Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> > Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
> >
> > Bug description:
> > The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as
> both
> > Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> > the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to ...

Hi Popey,

Would you mind organising a survey? It would probably be best to ask a simple, non-leading question, e.g. "What [do|would] you call the place where files go when you delete them?" Non-technical users would be more valuable participants because they're the ones most likely to be affected by a poor choice of terminology. This makes me think that an in-person (rather than web-based) survey would be necessary. We don't need good statistics on this; 15-20 participants would probably be plenty to inform the decision.

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I can ask a few people myself.

Please forgive my bluntness, I think a survey would be an unnecessary act. It's a simple fact that in the UK, people will refer to it as the "bin", "dustbin", "rubbish bin" or for something to be recycled "recycle bin" or "[put it in the] recycling" which is less common.

In reply to Matthew Paul Thomas, it should be up to the Ubuntu users and potential users in the UK to chose what they refer to things as not those from New Zealand as any changes are unlikely to affect them.

and could somebody please change the title of this from 'localization' to 'localisation' :D

I new here,can anyone help me to know what is going on?

I agree that its not needed.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 4:50 PM, unforeseen <email address hidden>wrote:

> and could somebody please change the title of this from 'localization'
> to 'localisation' :D
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
>
>

I think the problem is that no-one feels that they have the authority to make a final decision. A survey would choose for us, but I agree that it's a lot of messing around for little gain.

This bug is 44 comments long already. I say that we decide on "rubbish bin" and just leave it at that. This term is clear and unambiguous, and is in common, modern British usage.

I'm marking this bug as fixed from the Doc Team: the recommended term is now "Rubbish Bin". Dissent at your peril!

Personally, rubbish bin seems a little raw. But I suppose I could see what gnome-uk thinks.

Google Mail calls it "Bin", short and simple. If that wouldn’t suit most users, they would certainly choose another term.

"Rubbish Bin" or any other variation of "[word] Bin" seems too long and specific.

Disclaimer: I’m not a native speaker. Just believing that design can (and should) be measured http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/05/10/measuring-the-user-interface/

I think most native speakers are happy with either "Bin" or "Rubbish Bin". I'd personally prefer "Bin" (as I wouldn't really refer to deleted files "rubbish") but "Rubbish Bin" is fine if we are going with the waste container metaphor. As mentioned above, gmail uses "Bin" and that seems very natural.

  On 26/08/2010 12:01 a.m., Kazade wrote:
> I think most native speakers are happy with either "Bin" or "Rubbish
> Bin". I'd personally prefer "Bin" (as I wouldn't really refer to deleted
> files "rubbish") but "Rubbish Bin" is fine if we are going with the
> waste container metaphor. As mentioned above, gmail uses "Bin" and that
> seems very natural.
>
Actually, I think gMail uses "Trash", not "Bin".
Also, in my opinion, Trash sounds better.

--cody

Its bin on mine

On 25 August 2010 13:48, Cody C <email address hidden> wrote:

> On 26/08/2010 12:01 a.m., Kazade wrote:
> > I think most native speakers are happy with either "Bin" or "Rubbish
> > Bin". I'd personally prefer "Bin" (as I wouldn't really refer to deleted
> > files "rubbish") but "Rubbish Bin" is fine if we are going with the
> > waste container metaphor. As mentioned above, gmail uses "Bin" and that
> > seems very natural.
> >
> Actually, I think gMail uses "Trash", not "Bin".
> Also, in my opinion, Trash sounds better.
>
> --cody
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
>
>

--
Simon Bennie Mchem
Ph.D student

Theoretical chemistry group
School of Chemistry
The University of Manchester
M13 9PL

This email was sent using Ubuntu

On 25 August 2010 13:48, Cody C <email address hidden> wrote:
> Actually, I think gMail uses "Trash", not "Bin".

Not when configured to use UK English, which is what we are talking about here.

--
Matthew East
http://www.mdke.org
gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF

Trash is American usage. What gmail uses is dependant on your English
<GB/US> setting and here we are talking about GB.

I am in support of Mr Borchardt who said that "<anything> bin" is too long.
Just bin would be fine if you don't mind the .bin extension.

--
Alex
Blog : http://archeleus.com/blog

On 25 August 2010 20:48, Cody C <email address hidden> wrote:

> On 26/08/2010 12:01 a.m., Kazade wrote:
> > I think most native speakers are happy with either "Bin" or "Rubbish
> > Bin". I'd personally prefer "Bin" (as I wouldn't really refer to deleted
> > files "rubbish") but "Rubbish Bin" is fine if we are going with the
> > waste container metaphor. As mentioned above, gmail uses "Bin" and that
> > seems very natural.
> >
> Actually, I think gMail uses "Trash", not "Bin".
> Also, in my opinion, Trash sounds better.
>
> --cody
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
>
>

Just for confirmation, I've attached a screenshot of Gmail in UK English

I concur with the '[anything] bin' being too long.

I can also see there being some minor confusion between Bin and .bin but I
think that non-technical users in the UK are unlikely to need to use a .bin
file ... having said that, if they _do_ need to use one and phone up support
it could get confusing...

About the ".bin" confusion:
No normal user should ever come upon a .bin file (or file extensions at all but that’s a different story). Everyone that works with .bin files knows the difference. So, where is the confusion?

@unforeseen: Compare how often .bin files come up in support cases vs. how often the word "Bin" is used on any interface to resemble a place for deleted files.

If anything, the extension should be changed. But that’s not the point here. (Although it was quite funny seeing .bin files translated literally in the German version of the movie Hackers.)

  The original comment that "trash" is commonly used in UK english is
correct. It would be recognised by even the most fervent of those who
do not wish to use american/international english in the UK.

"Bin" on it's own would be confusing and "Rubbish" is not really
appropriate for items that have been deleted.

"Trash" would be well understood but "Deleted Items" or "Wastebasket"
would equally suffice.

Pick one and stick to it.

My personal perference would be for "Deleted Items".

--mart

On 25/08/2010 14:31, unforeseen wrote:
> I concur with the '[anything] bin' being too long.
>
>
> I can also see there being some minor confusion between Bin and .bin but I
> think that non-technical users in the UK are unlikely to need to use a .bin
> file ... having said that, if they _do_ need to use one and phone up support
> it could get confusing...

--
Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.

Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
Status in Ubuntu: Triaged

Bug description:
The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:/// in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be seen in #115661 also.

This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.

-----
Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
"trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin", "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
-----
(The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards andhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in comment #8.)

  The original comment that "trash" is commonly used in UK english is
correct. It would be recognised by even the most fervent of those who
do not wish to use american/international english in the UK.

"Bin" on it's own would be confusing and "Rubbish" is not really
appropriate for items that have been deleted.

"Trash" would be well understood but "Deleted Items" or "Wastebasket"
would equally suffice.

Pick one and stick to it.

My personal preference would be for "Deleted Items".

--mart

On 25/08/2010 14:31, unforeseen wrote:
> I concur with the '[anything] bin' being too long.
>
>
> I can also see there being some minor confusion between Bin and .bin but I
> think that non-technical users in the UK are unlikely to need to use a .bin
> file ... having said that, if they _do_ need to use one and phone up support
> it could get confusing...

--
Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.

Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
Status in Ubuntu: Triaged

Bug description:
The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:/// in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be seen in #115661 also.

This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.

-----
Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
"trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin", "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
-----
(The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards andhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in comment #8.)

I completely agree with you. I was just playing devil's advocate :)

Can we agree on Bin then? yes?

On 25 August 2010 14:57, Jan-Christoph Borchardt <email address hidden>wrote:

> About the ".bin" confusion:
> No normal user should ever come upon a .bin file (or file extensions at all
> but that’s a different story). Everyone that works with .bin files knows the
> difference. So, where is the confusion?
>
> @unforeseen: Compare how often .bin files come up in support cases vs.
> how often the word "Bin" is used on any interface to resemble a place
> for deleted files.
>
> If anything, the extension should be changed. But that’s not the point
> here. (Although it was quite funny seeing .bin files translated
> literally in the German version of the movie Hackers.)
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-common/+bug/406626/+subscribe
>

We have the Doc team verdict! Can the Translations team get this fixed for Maverick ?

.bin extensions should be fine.

I don't know relevant here but what about /bin?

I wouldn't want any newbie to do a rm * -r -f /bin thinking he was clearing
the waste.

--
Alex
http://archeleus.com/blog

On 25 August 2010 21:57, Jan-Christoph Borchardt <email address hidden>wrote:

> About the ".bin" confusion:
> No normal user should ever come upon a .bin file (or file extensions at all
> but that’s a different story). Everyone that works with .bin files knows the
> difference. So, where is the confusion?
>
> @unforeseen: Compare how often .bin files come up in support cases vs.
> how often the word "Bin" is used on any interface to resemble a place
> for deleted files.
>
> If anything, the extension should be changed. But that’s not the point
> here. (Although it was quite funny seeing .bin files translated
> literally in the German version of the movie Hackers.)
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards and
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
>
>
>

Being 'recognised' and being 'used' are two differing things.

'trash' would be recognised by most people, but would not be 'used' in
common conversation.

It would be recognised as an Americanism too.

Rob

On 25 August 2010 15:08, Martin Luckett <email address hidden> wrote:

> The original comment that "trash" is commonly used in UK english is
> correct. It would be recognised by even the most fervent of those who
> do not wish to use american/international english in the UK.
>
> "Bin" on it's own would be confusing and "Rubbish" is not really
> appropriate for items that have been deleted.
>
> "Trash" would be well understood but "Deleted Items" or "Wastebasket"
> would equally suffice.
>
> Pick one and stick to it.
>
> My personal preference would be for "Deleted Items".
>
> --mart
>
> On 25/08/2010 14:31, unforeseen wrote:
> > I concur with the '[anything] bin' being too long.
> >
> >
> > I can also see there being some minor confusion between Bin and .bin but
> I
> > think that non-technical users in the UK are unlikely to need to use a
> .bin
> > file ... having said that, if they _do_ need to use one and phone up
> support
> > it could get confusing...
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Opinion
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> Quoting MPT , see comment #15 for more details:
> "trash" is, in UK English, far and away more common than "rubbish bin",
> "wastebin", or "wastebasket".
> -----
> (The accuracy of this statement is questioned, see comment #28 onwards
> andhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnglishTranslation/WordSubstitution given in
> comment #8.)
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both
> Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but
> the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:///
> in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be
> seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply
> changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> from the Doc Team: th...

Please, just go with "Bin". The majority of native speakers in this thread seem happy with it. Either go with "Bin" or do a survey (but I'm almost positive the outcome of such a survey would be "Bin").

Gmail uses "Bin", and even Microsoft calls it the Recycle "Bin" in Windows. Bin is the common GB term, let's just go with that and be done with it.

Phil asked if I could conduct a survey which I haven't formally done. However I have taken the opportunity to pester just about everyone I know in the real world and ask them a simple question or two. "what's that?" (whilst pointing at a refuse container on the floor ;) ) . I also asked what was the stuff called that you put in it.

Without fail every single person either said "bin", "rubbish" or "rubbish bin". Nobody said "trash" or "recycle bin".

I even asked/annoyed/canvassed random strangers on the bus and in the lift at work. Whilst anecdotal and unscientific I am sure that a larger scale survey of British English speakers would yield similar results.

I've sent a message to the gnome-uk list asking on thoughts about "bin". I'll see if I can get this done for GNOME 2.32, but I don't promise anything.

The only problem I have with "bin" is that also happens to be the name of the folder in Unix/Linux where all your commands are stored...DO NOT empty this "bin" or your system will lock up!

Charlie

> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:26:15 +0000
> From: <email address hidden>
> To: <email address hidden>
> Subject: [Bug 406626] Re: Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
>
> Please, just go with "Bin". The majority of native speakers in this
> thread seem happy with it. Either go with "Bin" or do a survey (but I'm
> almost positive the outcome of such a survey would be "Bin").
>
> Gmail uses "Bin", and even Microsoft calls it the Recycle "Bin" in
> Windows. Bin is the common GB term, let's just go with that and be done
> with it.
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is referred to as both Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but the window is headed Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:/// in nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of this can be seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple enough fix simply changing strings, so I believe it is a papercut.
>
> -----
> from the Doc Team: the recommended term is now "Rubbish Bin"!
> -----
>
>
>

Does anyone know how I can unsubscribe from this group?

Gary
<email address hidden>
=========

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, cwarner7_11 <email address hidden> wrote:

> From: cwarner7_11 <email address hidden>
> Subject: RE: [Bug 406626] Re: Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB localization
> To: <email address hidden>
> Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 3:35 PM
>
> The only problem I have with "bin" is that also happens to
> be the name of the folder in Unix/Linux where all your
> commands are stored...DO NOT empty this "bin" or your system
> will lock up!
>
> Charlie
>
> > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:26:15 +0000
> > From: <email address hidden>
> > To: <email address hidden>
> > Subject: [Bug 406626] Re: Deleted Items Folder
> inconsistently named in en_GB
> localization
> >
> > Please, just go with "Bin". The majority of native
> speakers in this
> > thread seem happy with it. Either go with "Bin" or do
> a survey (but I'm
> > almost positive the outcome of such a survey would be
> "Bin").
> >
> > Gmail uses "Bin", and even Microsoft calls it the
> Recycle "Bin" in
> > Windows. Bin is the common GB term, let's just go with
> that and be done
> > with it.
> >
> > --
> > Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB
> localization
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> > You received this bug notification because you are a
> member of Ubuntu
> > Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
> >
> > Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> > Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> > Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
> >
> > Bug description:
> > The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and
> is referred to as both Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu
> offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but the window is headed
> Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:/// in
> nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of
> this can be seen in #115661 also.
> >
> > This could confuse new users and it should be a simple
> enough fix simply changing strings, so I believe it is a
> papercut.
> >
> > -----
> > from the Doc Team: the recommended term is now
> "Rubbish Bin"!
> > -----
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Deleted Items Folder inconsistently named in en_GB
> localization
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/406626
> You received this bug notification because you are a member
> of Ubuntu
> Documentation Project Team, which is a bug assignee.
>
> Status in GNOME Common Scripts: Unknown
> Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Triaged
> Status in Ubuntu: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> The deleted items folder is inconsistently named and is
> referred to as both Wastebasket and Deleted items, Ubuntu
> offers to 'Empty Deleted Items' but the window is headed
> Wastebasket. The URL to deleted items is also trash:/// in
> nautilus but this is possibly a seperate issue. An effect of
> this can be seen in #115661 also.
>
> This could confuse new users and it should be a simple
> enough fix simply changing strings, so I believe it is a
> papercut.
>
> -----
> from the Doc Team: the recommended term is now "Rubbish
> Bin"!
> -----
>
>
>
>

Hi folks,

This bug devolved into bikeshedding long ago. Consistency is the most important consideration here, not the actual term that's used. It's important that we make a choice and stick to it, ASAP. So, I'm sure that alternative choices like "bin" would be just as good, and I'm sure everyone has a wonderful justification for why their favourite term should be used, but a decision has been made, and the approved term in Ubuntu is now "Rubbish Bin". This term is clearly recognizable to British English speakers (comment #64, thanks for working on this Alan), and if you're really searching for justification then the addition of the word "rubbish" should clarify the meaning of the term to non-British-English speakers (notably, tech support workers).

*** Final decision: "Rubbish Bin". ***

Yet again we at upstream were not consulted at all. Thanks for putting yet another nail in the coffin of upstream collaboration.

Hi Bruce,

Earlier, you said "I'll see if I can get this done for GNOME 2.32, but I don't promise anything." Thanks, but this is no good. You know exactly what will happen: people will discuss the issue endlessly and no-one will ever make a final decision. My top priority is sorting out the consistency issue because it's confusing for users, and that requires a decision to be made as soon as possible.

You, as an upstream, can decide on the approved terminology *now* and we'll just adopt whatever you say. The important thing is that a decision is made.

(For what it's worth, upstream collaboration is very much alive. To see this, you should all join the docs team!)

I don't feel I have the authority to change the terminology without asking at least the other members of the team. I attempted to send a message to the gnome-uk list yesterday, but for some reason it doesn't appear to have worked. I'll try again soon.

The thing that irks me is that Ubuntu decide to do translation solely for themselves, but that's a different matter.

Bin is great for me, I am from finland and it sounds good for me, I am speaking brittish and us english.

Hi Bruce,

> Yet again we at upstream were not consulted at all. Thanks for putting yet another nail in the coffin of upstream collaboration.

I believe the best way to achieve collaboration is communication. As a representative of upstream, you've been participating in this discussion all along, so I'd say we've all done a good job.

Phil (who incidentally is also upstream, albeit for gnome docs) has taken the lead in processing the feedback and proposing a way forward for an issue that has been in the stage of discussion and blocking the work of several teams for the past year.

You were saying that if anything was decided you could probably get this fixed for GNOME 2.32. That's precisely what's happened, a final proposal has been put forward, no translations have yet been changed in Ubuntu as far as I know.

If we all agree in the terminology though, and a) the change cannot be adopted upstream for GNOME 2.32 due to lack of time; b) there are people in Ubuntu willing to work on this, I'd can see no trouble in adopting a pragmatic approach and do the change in Ubuntu first. The same Ubuntu translators might then want to help forwarding these changes upstream. I'm not a member of the UK team, I'd like to see this sorted as much as anyone else, and being both an Ubuntu and GNOME translator, I'd be glad to offer my help in exporting the changes from Ubuntu and commiting them in git.

> The thing that irks me is that Ubuntu decide to do translation solely for themselves, but that's a different matter.

Yes, I'd suggest discussing this as a separate topic, and I think the Ubuntu Translators maililng list (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/) would be the best place for that. You can also find more information on Ubuntu and upstream translations here:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream

On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 14:05 +0000, David Planella wrote:

> If we all agree in the terminology though, and a) the change cannot be
> adopted upstream for GNOME 2.32 due to lack of time; b) there are people
> in Ubuntu willing to work on this, I'd can see no trouble in adopting a
> pragmatic approach and do the change in Ubuntu first. The same Ubuntu
> translators might then want to help forwarding these changes upstream.
> I'm not a member of the UK team, I'd like to see this sorted as much as
> anyone else, and being both an Ubuntu and GNOME translator, I'd be glad
> to offer my help in exporting the changes from Ubuntu and commiting them
> in git.

The en_GB translations haven't actually started yet for GNOME 2.32, so
there would be no problem with getting this done, as long as the other
members of the team agreed of course.

> > The thing that irks me is that Ubuntu decide to do translation solely
> for themselves, but that's a different matter.
>
> Yes, I'd suggest discussing this as a separate topic, and I think the
> Ubuntu Translators maililng list
> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/) would be the best place
> for that. You can also find more information on Ubuntu and upstream
> translations here:

No point in discussing this, sorry I mentioned it.
--
Bruce Cowan <email address hidden>

Hey all!

I feel happy with "(the) rubbish bin".

I have a small confesion.. about an hour ago changed all the wastebasket entries in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=wastebasket that were using the term wastebasket to the term "Deleted Items (Folder)" before I saw this bug (sorry :( ). I noticed the bug in 10.04 and stupidly forgot to search the bugs!!

Michael

Hello again,

I will (if it is OK with the mass consensus, don't want to upset the group!) rename all wastebasket, deleted items etc to "Rubbish Bin" tomorrow (I guess it is tomorrow (I need sleep!)) or Monday on the Nautilus package even if its just a "it will do for now" fix?

Michael

Updated gfvs and gnome-applets en-GB translations to "Rubbish Bin" also.

Translations changed to "Rubbish Bin"

Michael Fallows ,Nice work!. Thanks for getting the fix committed.

In the user guide (within "Using Trash", "Moving a File or Folder to Trash" and possibly more) need to be changed to using the new Rubbish Bin wording rather then trash.

Sorry just for clarification by user guide I meant the Gnome Documentation that is found in Ubuntu -> System -> Help and Support.

Looks like there is still two inconsistencies. Nautilus uses trash:// as the uri to the Rubbish Bin. Okay, accept that this is unlikely to be easily changeable in the same way that one wouldn't change /home to /дома or whatever. However the applet at the bottom of the screen still has two entirely different names for Rubbish Bin.

See screenshot, bottom right.

@Michael Fallows: Could you check/correct the two menu items for the trash-applet that Alan has pointed out?

Yes it has been changed in the source package (gnome-applets) translations here https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/gnome-applets/+pots/gnome-applets-2.0/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=wastebasket . Does this need to be updated anywhere else to become an update within Ubuntu?

OK, I just emptied the Rubbish Bin and a confirmation window popped up and asked me if I really wanted to empty the Trash. So, there are obviously some strings still hiding.

Also, the two menu entries that appear when right-clicking the Rubbish Bin applet still show "Wastebasket" and "Deleted Items" (see Alan's comment #82)

Just a follow up to my previous comment, both the strings are translated in launchpad, just not yet packaged in gnome-applets.

El dv 01 de 10 de 2010 a les 08:27 +0000, en/na Kazade va escriure:
> Just a follow up to my previous comment, both the strings are translated
> in launchpad, just not yet packaged in gnome-applets.
>

We're starting to build the final language packs today, so they should
be there in a few days and include all the new translations.

If after you've updated to the latest language packs you still see any
remaining Deleted Items or Wastebasket instances, please report back and
let's investigate where they come from.

Thanks!

Thanks David for the update and thanks to everyone who has worked on this! Hope we have caught every translation and that the updates come through soon :).

Looking nicely consistent now - see screenshot.

Thanks everyone.

However whilst consistent, the previous wording on the applet was:-

"Open the Wastebasket" -> "Open Rubbish Bin"
"Empty the Deleted Items folder" -> "Empty Rubbish Bin"

Seems we've lost the "the".

I've added suggested translations in Launchpad including the missing "the" in gnome-applets and there is already an existing one in Nautilus (for the button that appears when you view the rubbish bin). I don't have magic translation review powers so I can only suggest the change, can someone go in and review it?

In US english it is "Open Trash" and "Empty Trash" , there is no "the" , why does UK English need extra "the" ?

@vish, because it's grammatically correct ;) In the same way that we use:- "write to me" where US English uses "write me".

@popey & @Kazade,

Hi,
I've reviewed and 'saved' you're suggestions, they are correct as far as en_gb is concerned, if there are any other instances where you find this please let us know!

cheers

Ricey

I would suggest *against* adding "the" for this. Menu items are not about forming grammatically correct complete sentences.

HIG specifies not to overuse these http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/grammar.html.en

Also, no other menu items use "the"/"a" unnecessarily.
Eg: nautilus File menu > is Create Folder , Create Document. and everywhere else in all applications it is the same pattern.

Adding "the" here would mean bringing in a new inconsistency.

But, if the British think they invented English, then... Oh! wait! :-)

I concur with Vish: for menu items, the determiner 'the' should typically be omitted. Here's a list of standard menus and menu items:

  http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en

None of the menu items listed contain determiners.

To be fair I think the inconsistency with the "the" came about when I was translating all of the original texts to Rubbish bin I kept a "the" when it was a wordy text such "Do you wish to send this to the Rubbish Bin" where as if it was an action/command "Send to Rubbish Bin" I missed out the "the". Could be my East London dialect that makes that sound OK without the "the"? I guess this means I aggree with Vish as he is talking mainly of the menu items (i.e. actions/commands).

Michael

The problem is that, "Sent to Rubbish Bin" and "Empty Rubbish Bin" sound disjointed and robotic. It's not fair to compare it to "trash" because Trash is what what goes in the bin (e.g. Empty Rubbish sounds OK).

Empty Rubbish Bin is understandable, it's just ugly.

OK, I think my reference to the gnome HIG is a bit unfair over this issue :-) [maybe a side-effect of replying at 3am on a Sat night :p ]

Because HIG is basically how the _default_ language style needs to be written in Gnome UI and the default language is US English. So everything else is just based accordingly there.

As popey mentioned, the translations need to adapt to the locale.
The local translators need to decide which sounds more apt for their locale and they weigh in on the benefits.

My non-locale view on this is that, this change *is* bringing in new inconsistent to the items from the rest of the system menus.

However, the UK translators/users might find this an absolutely necessary change to make.
If so, this needs to be done elsewhere too, to maintain a consistent UI. Kindly make the necessary changes elsewhere too.

Mostly, everwhere in HIG there is a reference of keeping labels short and for clear, consistent and concise labelling.
http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/language-labels.html.en

http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en
Find Next, Find Previous , From FIle... , Add Bookmark , Edit Bookmarks , need to be changed
More items listed at :
http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-design.html.en
http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/menu-terminology.html.en
http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus.html.en

This bug is about the inconsistent naming of wastebasket and Deleted items, and was fixed when popey confirmed with screenshot in comment #90, beyond which we have piggy-backed on this bug with another issue.
Marking this bug as fixed, while the change to add "the/a/an" can be discussed in a new a bug for all menu items.

Thanks everyone for getting this fixed! :-)

Hi guys,

Please stick to the HIG with this. Deviating from it will introduce ambiguities when translating the documentation. I should also point out that this isn't a localisation issue, it's a stylistic one. We have this "terse" style in UK English too (newspaper headlines use something similar, for example), and it's perfectly acceptable.

It's OK for action labels, like those on buttons or in pop-up menus, to sound disjointed. They're not full sentences; rather they're "headings", so there's no need for them to flow. The role of an action label is to quickly identify a function, not to convey meaning, so there's no need for the wording to sound pleasant. This would be different if we were talking about (e.g.) the explanatory text in a dialog box, though.

Hi everyone,

Thanks to everyone participating in the discussions and applying the fixes, the original bug about inconsistent naming is now fixed. Good work!

For any remaining issues such as the need to add an article to the actions related to the Rubbish Bin, I'd recommend using the British translators mailing list, which is a more appropriate forum for such discussions.

Once agreement has been reached, you can modify the strings in Launchpad if necessary, and they will be picked up in the next round of stable release language pack updates, a few weeks after release.

Thanks!

This bug isn't entirely fixed - the tooltip for Rubbish Bin in the Nautilus sidebar still says 'Open the wastebasket'.

There was also a reference to Deleted Items in the Unity sidebar in UNE, but I've corrected it now.

Reopening this ticket for ubuntu-translations to ask for confirmation this is resolved for Transmission? Transmission's still listed on this ticket as "triaged" rather than "fix committed" or "fix released".

charles, It was marked fixed because the initial bug which was the issue here was fixed.
The transmission task was added only 2weeks ago.
It is better to file new bug rather than creating metabugs.
If such metabugs are OK for the translations team, This bug will probably take a while to fix, since "Trash" is a very common occurrence and every application in the main/universe can keep re-opening this bug and spamming everyone.

See similar bug for Unity and Trash > Bug #646669 .

Re-closing this ticket to avoid metabugs, and reopening bug #653529

Closing Transmission task, as Bug #653529 has been un-duped and is tracked separately now.

El dg 10 de 10 de 2010 a les 14:08 +0000, en/na melat0nin va escriure:
> This bug isn't entirely fixed - the tooltip for Rubbish Bin in the
> Nautilus sidebar still says 'Open the wastebasket'.
>

We've dealt with the bulk of Wastebasket/Deleted Items translations now.
Apart from the ones from Unity (fix committed) and transmission
(separate bug, a step away from being fixed), there hasn't been any
other report of inconsistencies.

That particular string in Nautilus was fixed already, but a couple of
days after the language pack deadline, thus it didn't make it to the
final language packs:

https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=open+the+wastebasket

The fix should be visible in the next language pack updates in a couple
of weeks.

I've attached a text file with other places where "Wastebasket" is still
present in the system. You might want to change those too. You can find
the strings in Launchpad using the same URL pattern as above. Here it
is:

https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/$SOURCEPACKAGE/+pots/$TEMPLATE/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=open+the+wastebasket

Often $SOURCEPACKAGE and $TEMPLATE are the same. If not, you can go to
the source package translations page, look at the templates and simply
click on them to go there.

Note that some will be false positives and will already have been fixed,
like the ones in Nautilus.

I hope this helps.

Fixed as per https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/transmission/+bug/653529

Added unity to the list. When you hover over the wastebucket icon in the left hand corner, it says "Trash"

El dt 30 de 11 de 2010 a les 17:24 +0000, en/na David Stansby va
escriure:
> Added unity to the list. When you hover over the wastebucket icon in the
> left hand corner, it says "Trash"
>
> ** Also affects: unity (Ubuntu)
> Importance: Undecided
> Status: New
>

Note that if we're talking about Unity in Natty, I believe that this
simply because the Trash icon is either not translatable or not yet
translated (Natty translations are not yet open, and the first language
packs will be released around Alpha 1)

Unity is already tracked in Bug #646669 .
Transmission is Bug #653529

I've reported two new bugs:
Unity at Bug #773037
Nautilus at Bug #773039