Intrepid: No "AltGr" key defined -> e.g. no "@" symbol with MacBook Pro

Binary package hint: pommed

Testing with Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha 4. Manually changed System -> Preferences -> Keyboard to "Apple: MacBook / MacBook Pro (Intel)", but no change. Apparently Ubuntu does not know what to do with the key second right to the space key (the key right next to the space key is the "Apple" key which also is right left to the space key) which should probably do the job of the AltGr key.

Fn - ctrl - alt - Apple key - SPACE - Apple key - strange key which probably should do the job of AltGr - < key etc.

Note that normally on modern Macs you get the "@" symbol pressing some key + the letter "l" key. At the moment, with Ubuntu, things work neither the Mac way nor the usual PC way. (I suppose it would be useful to use the PC way.)

This goes for a German keyboard tested. I assume it's the same with other languages' keyboards (English keyboards have th "@" on "q", too, right?).

English keyboards have the @ as Shift+2. Is it perhaps behaving like an English keyboard in this regard?

No, Shift+2 produces quotation marks.

Using the settings shown in the screenshot, I cannot reproduce this bug. I held down AltGr and the l key, and I can type @ just fine (things like knowing German keyboards switch z and y, however...). Are these the same settings you have?

Starting the newly installed system, "Keyboard Model" said "Evdev-managed keyboard". It always flips back to this adjustment when I click "restore default values" or whatever this is called in the English version (the button on the right side of the windows right under the field under which you chopped your screenshot.

When I re-change settings from "Evdev-managed keyboard" to your settings, there is no change either. No at symbol.

Anyway I personally would think it would be better to have it the PC way by default, as has been done with all the rest (eg you copy files with ctrl + c, not with AppleKey + c, which would be the Apple way). The German PC way would be AltGr + q. But this is a different topic as long as the problem itself is there.

In the middle part, there's the layout settings. Does it currently
say German (or Deutsch) layout? Setting that part with German on top
and marked Default lets me type @ with AltGr q

What do you mean by "middle part"? What's this button called exactly?

Is there a way I can temporarily switch the system to English so that I find exactly the button you mean?

You'd have to install the English language pack from System -> Administration -> Languages. Then log out and log in again but on the GDM screen choose English for the language in the Options menu.

I attached a screenshot to show what I mean by "middle part." There's the Model section where you choose MacBook. Then there's the Selected Layouts part. That's what I meant by "middle part." Is German/Deutsch listed there? If not, add it by using the Add button just below there. It'll bring up a new window, and you can pick Germany/Deutschland from the top drop-down. Just below that you can pick the specific layout. Hit Add at the bottom of that window, then click and drag German/Deutsch from the list in the "Selected layouts" and move it to the top of the list and make it default.

Does that work?

Thanks once more for screenshot. "Selected Layouts" is "Gewählte Belegungen" in German. In the "Layout" list in the middle ("Belegung" in German) it says "Germany Macintosh". This is the only layout I presently have in the list, so no need to put it on top of the list.

And it does or doesn't work when the Gewählte Belegungen has Germany
Macintosh and the Keyboard Model says Apple?

Oh, sorry, forgot to say it doesn't.

I just tried this on a laptop keyboard instead of a normal keyboard. It seems AltGr moves to the Menu key with the different layout...if you try other keys in the bottom right, does anything happen?

No, nothing happens. Besides, there only are two buttons right to the space bar: The Apple key (same one as just left from the space bar) and the key whose name I don't know, which is probably meant to be AltGr (see above).

I just looked at my roommate's MacBook Pro. It seems only Command/Apple
and Enter are to the right of the spacebar...no AltGr...which would
explain why it can't be typed. Can you click the Layout Options button
under "Reset to Defaults" and try setting something else as the
"Compose" key?

Sorry, what is the "Compose" key?

The strange key that could well be used as "AltGr" currently produces a line break ("Enter"), but it would probably be wise to put "AltGr" on it, since you have a massive Enter/Return-key two lines up.

I don't know what the German version would be for the name, but maybe this screenshot helps. If you set "right-win" I think that'd mean the Apple key on the right, so you could make that be AltGr.

Thanks for the screenshot. Now I know what you mean. Apparently this part of the menue has not been translated yet, so it looks similar here.

However, I still don't get which key you (and Ubuntu) mean when you talk of the "compose" key. Normal PC keyboards have not "Compose" key (cf. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose-Taste).

Please see what PC keyboards as I know them look like on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Cherry_keyboard_105_keys.jpg. (The third key right to the space bar has the same function as a right mouse click.) A possible layout for a laptop keyboard layout can be seen on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Laptop_Tastatur.jpg.

You always have a button called "AltGr" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr), whether you use a laptop or a standard PC. Since the "strange key" on the MacBook Pro keyboard has nothing printed on it apart from a symbol that is cryptic to me (and - as I would suppose - most other users), I would recommend putting AltGr on that key and putting the "Windows key" functions on both "Apple" keys.

> However, I still don't get which key you (and Ubuntu) mean when you talk
> of the "compose" key. Normal PC keyboards have not "Compose" key (cf.
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose-Taste).

I think Compose Key is a Linux thing, but it's functionally the same as AltGr.

> Please see what PC keyboards as I know them look like on
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Cherry_keyboard_105_keys.jpg. (The
> third key right to the space bar has the same function as a right mouse
> click.) A possible layout for a laptop keyboard layout can be seen on
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Laptop_Tastatur.jpg.
>
> You always have a button called "AltGr" (see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr), whether you use a laptop or a
> standard PC. Since the "strange key" on the MacBook Pro keyboard has
> nothing printed on it apart from a symbol that is cryptic to me (and -
> as I would suppose - most other users), I would recommend putting AltGr
> on that key and putting the "Windows key" functions on both "Apple"
> keys.

Not all keyboards have AltGr labeled as such, actually. I haven't
seen one labeled that that was made in the last 20 years, with the
exception of one laptop. As it turns out, MacBooks don't have an
AltGr at all. Instead, they only have Apple and Return. This is an
interesting problem, which seems to boil down to a hardware
limitation, though there really ought to be some way around it since
it's obviously a problem. Perhaps a .Xmodmap file remapping that
Return key to AltGr could work, but I don't know .Xmodmap syntax to do
it.

> Not all keyboards have AltGr labeled as such, actually. I haven't
> seen one labeled that that was made in the last 20 years, with the
> exception of one laptop.

Apparently that's country specific. I've never seen a German keyboard *without* an AltGr key.

> As it turns out, MacBooks don't have an
> AltGr at all. Instead, they only have Apple and Return. This is an
> interesting problem, which seems to boil down to a hardware
> limitation, though there really ought to be some way around it since
> it's obviously a problem.

Yes, it is. However, it would be easy to solve, since the key I called "the strange key" (apparently it is meant to be the old "ENTER" in addition (!) to the big RETURN key) could easily be used as AltGr. This wouldn't irritate anyone since appart from a symbol that is crpytic to me and that I have never noticed anywhere else before, there is nothing printed on it. So it probably wouldn't irritate anyone to put AltGr on it, and it would be quite in the position where the average German user would expect it to be.

> Perhaps a .Xmodmap file remapping that
> Return key to AltGr could work, but I don't know .Xmodmap syntax to do
> it.

I agree, but I wouldn't know how to do it either. You think it is correct to link this into pommed anyway?

PS Maybe you could set this bug from "Incomplete" to "confirmed" so that it gets a little more attention.

Have you tried with arrow up + g? On Intrepid α4 livecd the arrow-up key works as a 3rd level chooser ...

arrow up + g produces "g".

on a livecd, on fresh install or on an updated (from hardy) install?

8.10 64-Bit Alpha 2 live cd boot, installation from live cd system, reboot, updates.

Note that there is a similar problem in Norwegian: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xkeyboard-config/+bug/160171.

Here is what the whole German keyboard looks like: http://www.praezisionoptoelektronik.de/upload/Tastatur/Apple15/Apple15b.jpg.

Since this seems to be a problem of the Ubuntu installer not seeing this is a MacBook Pro specific keyboard , and considering the fact that there are quite a few more issues with this keyboard (brightness keys, eject button, square brackets, keyboard light - all reported on launchpad), maybe the title of this bug report should be changed and its focus should be widened?

We barely have the English Apple keyboards working correctly and since there are not quite as many Non-English Apple Keyboards out there, the layouts for these have not been fixed (due to lack of bug reports). There are quite a few Apple Keyboard related bugs open right now though.

> There are quite a few Apple Keyboard related bugs open right now though.

Very true indeed. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge than I have would like to have a look at them and bundle them, if related? E.g. maybe this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/261573 is associated with the bug reported above?

I think there is one out there for the French variant, but this is the first one I have seen for the German layout.

From what I can tell, the keys on the bottom row of a German Macbook Pro are as follows. A picture of yours may help to clarify:

Fn - CTRL - ALT/Option - CMD - Space - CMD - ALT/Option

PS the alt key is also know as an option key on macs.

Also it looks as though the @ symbol is on the key next to the Return key

Dear Rick,

sorry to say this, but "what is" and "how it should be" has been discussed very widely above. Please read this whole thread first before contributing any more comments.

This problem needs fixing and no further comments of what is and what should be, sorry. No offence intended, of course.

sorry somehow I missed your picture above. My apologies.

No worry. Any news on this issue?

From what I have found looking around that weird symbol ( ⌅ ) is supposed to be "Enter" (as opposed to Return) and that seems to follow with how it functions as you stated already (and why that mark is also on the Return key) and also matches what is found on other language keyboards. I believe that most people remap the right CMD/Apple Key to AltGr with xmodmap.

I have also found in some places that on Mac portables, that the AltGr function was obtained by doing Fn+Alt, so you might try that as well. (Is this how it functions under OSX?).

I thought that the omission of the AltGr on the right side is likely due to the condensed keyboard, but I found this image on wikipedia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Apple_wired_thin_keyboard-2007-08-11.jpg
Notice on the "full" German Apple Keyboard that there is no ⌅ markings, and still no AltGr key that I can tell.

Hope this helps.

Also under the Advanced button when choosing your keyboard layout, there are some options for third level choosers, you can try changing those around.

Linking upstream bug report

----
@ Ricky Campell:

> From what I have found looking around that weird symbol ( ⌅ ) is supposed to be "Enter":

Yes, you are certainly right. Since, however, there is no need for a separate "Enter" key nowadays AND since this key has the advantage of having a symbol on it which is probably more or less meaningless to most users (i.e. it is somewhat "neutrally" labelled), I would suggest to automatically use it for the AltGr function.

> (and why that mark is also on the Return key):

It is indeed, you are right, as a very small additional second symbol. Never noticed it before. Guess no one else ever entered before, either.

> I believe that most people remap the right CMD/Apple Key to AltGr with xmodmap.:

You are certainly right, but IMHO this should work out-of-the-box. Apart from that, there is a current issue which might make it impossible for people to do this on a graphical basis (you'll find it if you look around in Launchpad).

> I have also found in some places that on Mac portables, that the AltGr function was obtained by doing Fn+Alt, so you might try that as well.

Doesn't work.

> (Is this how it functions under OSX?)

No.

> Also under the Advanced button when choosing your keyboard layout, there are some options for third level choosers, you can try changing those around.

I already did. Please read above.

For the part about it working "out of the box"... Just for informational purposes.. There have been arguments against the sort of thing you suggest as well. For instance. There is no Num Lock key on Apple keyboards, but the Clear Key (which is in he same location on the Full Keyboards) is mapped to NumLock instead. Apple keyboards also do not have arrow keys on the numpads, so it is strange to the user when they work as arrow keys, then there is no key marked to switch that function. Point being, If the key doesn't exist on the keyboard already, you have to be careful changing the marked function of keys already on the keyboard. Otherwise I agree that the small enter key would be a good choice for conversion to AltGr.

So how does it function in OSX? How would to get the @? Maybe that would be a good choice to mimick...

Also, from what I read above, you only talked about the Compose Key Options... There are other options as well. The third level chooser options should allow you to set an existing key to do what you want.

> Also under the Advanced button when choosing your keyboard layout, there are some options for third level choosers, you can try changing those around.

Thats the way I solved it:
I selected Generic 105-key (Intl) PC and the German Layout.
Then I selected "Press Right Win-key to choose 3rd level." in the advanced options for third level choosers and got the @ with Right CMD and q.
IMHO this should be default when you choose the Macbook model and German layout (which should be automatically detected)

PS: Before that I had an xorg.conf with Option "XkbOptions" "lv3:rwin_switch" in it.

@ Ricky Campbell: Coming from Windows to OSX, one might have some trouble during the first weeks: When you press the key right next to the space bar because you expect it to be "AltGr", plus "q", you don't get "@". Instead, you have quit a program - Apple + "q" stands for "quit"!

On a German OSX you produce "@" via Apple + "l".

I personally would favour to have it handled the PC way, or, as a compromise, make it work both ways so that both PC users and OSX users get along, as long as there are no legal arguments against remapping the keyboard.

> IMHO this should be default when you choose the Macbook model and German layout (which should be automatically detected)

Apparently, currently not only the keyboard is not being detected but it is also completely wrong. Try System -> Einstellungen -> Tastatur, choose "MacBook/MacBook Pro (Intl)" + "Germany Macintosh" and choose "Print Layout Diagram". I get a DESKTOP KEYBOARD DIAGRAM! Now I stop wondering why there is so much wrong with Ubuntu and this keyboard!

Can anyone tell the developer about this? Seems to me he doesn't really read what we are discussing here.

I will attach the diagram that Ubuntu produces. Additionally, once more, here is what the keyboard really looks like: http://www.praezisionoptoelektronik.de/upload/Tastatur/Apple15/Apple15b.jpg.

PS Maybe this should also be filed against the "Keyboard Accessibility preference tool". However, I don't know which package that is.

what developer are you talking about? You should follow up on the upstream bug, Sergey doesn't follow launchpad bugs.

So we are discussing here for weeks all for nothing?

How can anyone be so arrogant not to look into the bug tracker of the most popular Linux distribution in the world (http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Operating-Systems/Linux-Distributions/Ubuntu-Hardy-Heron-32974.shtml)?

Same thing with evolution: No Ubuntu maintainer in launchpad. I am getting the impression that most guys here are just wasting their lifetime, and that Launchpad is merely a gigantic employment-creation measure.

AND: Couldn't you have told us BEFORE that no one cares about what we are finding out here?

eh, the point is that this bug is already reported upstream and discussion should be forwarded there.. Upstream developers have no obligation to follow lp.net.

oh, and there are nearly 2000 bugs reported against the X team packages, so it's kinda hard to follow all of them.. (100 bugmails per day)

Same here with Dell XPS M1330.

I have install Intrepid from the beta alternate CD, but i can't use altgr + q and the cursor aren't working.

Sorry, problem was a old .Xmodmap

I have delete it and now it works fine.

1 - The upstream link is dead.
2 - Anyone who could inform the upstream people about the "@" and "AltGr" problem?

The link works there is just a problem with the security certificate.

I have informed upstream

http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12441

Looks like the use of Alt is very hardcoded to Linux application logic and we basically cannot get the same behavior as on OSX.

I don't think making left alt do shortcuts and third level would be
intuitive at all. For people with Apple hardware that have never used
OSX, using left alt for altgr would be confusing (I've used MacBooks
with OSX quite a bit and didn't know about that). I'd make the spare
Enter key (blank-ish on intl versions) be altgr. No need for two and
for intl its unclear what it's purpose is anyway.

Seems they dont quite get the difference between Alt and AltGr upstream. Could anyone explain it to them?

Btw. I do not find this discussion here referenced by hyperlink in the upstream ticket.

1 - Btw. I do not find this discussion here referenced by hyperlink in the upstream ticket, even though there might be quite some valuable information in it.
2 - What can we do to provide more of the information needed?

3 - Noted that there already is some information on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro?action=show&redirect=MacBook+Pro#Keyboard%20Fixes, so it shouldn't be too difficult to implement it into the installation routine?

> 2 - What can we do to provide more of the information needed?

Reopen the upstream bug, and explain how you think the issue should be fixed based on the above discussion.

There are actually various options to use as 3rd level choser. Even the Enter one (on keypad). Is none of them suitable?

Whilst that might make a good work around, it still needs fixing...

Ok, just tested it with Ubuntu 9.10 Alpha 2 live Desktop. You can switch the keyboard to "Apple MacBook/MacBook Pro (Intl)" without getting any error message. What a progress after a year!

However, there is still no "@" sign by default. Also, I did not manage to configure it by defining a Third Level Chooser. Seems that Ubuntu does not even know the key that IMHO might well be used as the AltGr key and which I called the "strange key" (see above).

Btw. someone edited my original posting typing some workaround into my text. I do not consider this to be useful.

@ Bryce Harrington: Personally, I do not think that Ubuntu users should be forced to open additional accounts and to make things even more complicated by having to post bugs upstream.

Just got bitten by this bug after upgrading from Jaunty to Karmic (64bit on a MacBook Pro 3.1).

In 9.04 I had Keyboard Layout Options > Key to choose 3rd level > Right Win activated, which made the right Apple ("command") key act as modifier for @|{}#...
In 9.10 this stopped working. I can map it to the Left Alt, which produces the correct output. Strangely, as soon as I check "Right Win" too, it stops working on both the Alt and Apple key...
Curiously it DOES WORK in gnome-terminal. I can happily check any combination of 3rd level choosers and the terminal will produce the expected output.

Screenshots for clarification...

situation1.png - I'm pressing "command"+2 (should produce @ ony my keyboard) in xev. Works in gnome-terminal, has no effect in text-areas, editors, everywhere else.
xbindkeys -k returns "Mod4+Mod5 + ISO_Level3_Shift"

situation2.png - Same as situation 1, now Alt also produces @ etc. in gnome-terminal and xbindkeys returns the same for the Alt and Apple keys.

situation3 - Ticking off the "Right Win" suddenly makes the Alt key work correctly as modifier everywhere. Also the output of xbindkeys -k changes to "Mod5 + ISO_Level3_Shift" (the Mod4 is gone).
I've tried various combinations with the "Right Ctrl", "Any Win", ... checkboxes. In short, turning on any option with "Win" in it's name makes it impossible to produce @#|{}...

Besides, choosing MacBook/MacBook Pro (with or without intl) as keyboard model gives an incorrect key mapping... Generic 102-key works fine.
Still I'd be happy to use my Left Alt key for things like alt+tabbing instead of curly brackets and @s ;)

.

Fixed for me by setting Keyboard Layout Options > Key to choose 3rd level > Right Win and then installing Alexey Ten's patched version of xkb-data from here:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xkeyboard-config/+bug/408397

I had same problem as bryonak, in a MacBookPro with Spanish keyboard; I updated xkb-data with same patched version of xkb-data, and now I can use my Super_L and Super_R (apple's command keys) as 3rd level choosers (considering them as Left-Win and Right-Win).

On windows it is posible to use alt+ctrl instead of Alt Gr. This is also grate because you can do combinations on the left side using just one hand.

Patch referenced in comment #77 is now included in Ubuntu for about the past year or so.