Comment 139 for bug 691380

(In reply to Blake Winton (:bwinton - Thunderbird UX) from comment #133)
> (In reply to Charles from comment #131)
>> (In reply to Blake Winton (:bwinton - Thunderbird UX) from comment #130)
>>> (In reply to Charles from comment #129)
>>>> (In reply to Blake Winton (:bwinton - Thunderbird UX) from comment #128)

>> a) we are talking about bringing something back that was *removed* that a
>> *lot* of people liked and want to see brought back, and

> Perhaps the problem is that I'm not talking about bringing back anything…

Well, that is the point of this whole bug - I should know, I am the one who opened it.

>> That picture shows that you are in Global Search mode, not Filter mode. This
>> extension is *primarily* meant to be used for filtering, not Global
>> Searching, that part was added later. Switch to Filter mode (click the mode
>> toggle button, which is the Magnifying glass icon) and experiment with that
>> for a while...

> Right, then there are "only" three buttons, instead of the one for QFB and
> Gloda…

? in Filter mode, there are *4* buttons

> Also, the fact that there are two different modes is one of the problems I
> have with it.

Flexibility sometimes comes with a certain level of complexity, but I don't think this is all that complicated, it just takes a little experimentation and getting used to how it works.

As Iago has said, apparently there are some bugs in the Global mode functionality, so maybe you can help him get them fixed?

>>> For the add-on's popup, there's no indication of what the various icons are,
>>> or which keys I would use to activate them.

>> If you mouse-over them, you get tooltip descriptions of what they do.

> And if I'm blind?

Then you'd be having similar problems with the QFB wouldn't you? I don't see your point.

> Even if I'm sighted, mousing-over and waiting for several tooltips before I
> finally find the icon I want is a bad UX by any measure.

Well, then, since tooltips are used in lots of places in both Thunderbird and Firefox (and lots of other programs), I guess they *all* have lots of 'bad UX'.

Come on, Blake... it only takes mousing over them a few times before you learn what they do and then there's no more need to mouse over them ever again, and you *know* it, so why are you being so disingenuous about this?

> For the add-on, to clear the options, Esc+Esc is a _horrible_ key
> combination.

And what would you call having to use 'Ctrl-F' to enable the 'Find in message' filter, and then have to use 'Esc' to hide it again? At least the nonsensical *double* use of 'Ctrl-f' (depending on context) and double-esc for toggling the QFB and/or the 'Find in message' filters was finally sort-of fixed (I still hate it, but it is less painful now).

>> So do like I do and just click the little x icon.

> That there is an alternative doesn't make Esc+Esc a good UX.

So maybe you can suggest a way to improve it?

Really, Blake, it sounds like you're looking to bash this addon just because - well, I honestly don't know why. Maybe you're offended that there are a lot of people who don't agree with the decision to *lose* the message filter searchbox rather than just add the QFB as a new *optional* way to filter messages, and that someone very capable (thanks Iago!) actually stepped up and did something about it?

>>> (I also have no idea what "Clear Options" actually does…)

>> It clears the searchbox text and any of the options (show Unread only, show
>> Starred only, Show only messages with Attachments, etc)...

> So, I mention all of these things not so that you can explain them, because
> I'm sure there are answers to any of them, but to demonstrate that there are
> a large number of things that are confusing to people who have never used
> the add-on before.

The same can be said of *any* new feature/functionality in *any* program.

>> It is vastly more minimal, because it isn't a toolbar, it is a little
>> searchbox that you can put wherever you want. I put all of my icons and the
>> Unified Search box on the Menu bar.

> Not being a toolbar doesn't make it more minimal. Neither does making it
> smaller. (For that matter, neither does removing text labels from iconic
> buttons.)

Ok, Blake, no offense, but you simply cannot be serious. It *does* make it more 'minimal', in the sense that it takes up less *space* *and* allows the user the freedom to put the searchbox wherever they want and be able to filter messages without having another huge toolbar taking up more precious screen real estate, which is *the* *whole* *point*.

> Removing functionality from it (like my suggestion to remove the two modes)
> would make it more minimal, but you don't seem to be suggesting that.

I'm actually fine with losing the 'Global' search aspects (since I never use it), but I don't see any problem with keeping it either (again, since I don't use it, I just won't use this aspect), or at least keeping the ability to launch a global search using 'Ctrl+Enter' either. Again, best of both worlds (for those who live in both).

> Also, you know we've got plans to hide the menu bar by default, right? So
> putting things there isn't a great long-term idea…

<sigh> Yes, it is. I *already* have everything up in the menubar and *already* keep the menubar hidden by default (drops down on mouseover of the window titlebar) using the Hide Menubar addon. Once we have the *native* ability to hide the menubar and get the App Menu Button done for Thunderbird, the addon developer for the 'Personal Titlebar' addon will be able to (and has already said he would) add support for Thunderbird, which will let me swap the Hide Menubar addon for the PErsonal Titlebar addon which will let me have *everything* up in the *Window Titlebar* (just like I do now in Firefox), which is my ultimate goal.

I will attach some screenshots of what my UI looks like after posting this...

> I think we can have something that offers both filtering and global search
> without making people specify which one they want, by extending the
> behaviour of the QFB when you type in something like "fjdsfjslfnsdkfn" to
> also cover cases where there are matches, and that seems like a better way
> to go to me…

For you, or anyone who likes the QFB, maybe, but for those of use who do not want another toolbar just to be able to do simple message filtering, that is unacceptable, especially when a better way already exists.

I (and there are lots more like me) *don't* *like* the QFB, precisely because it is a *toolbar*. It was the *reason* I opened this bug, and the *reason* that Iago coded the Unified Search Addon - so those of use who preferred the simple little movable filter text box could have the best of both worlds.

>> The whole point of this addon is to eliminate the need for a huge toolbar,
>> and give us back the little filter searchbox that can be placed wherever we
>> want like TB 3.0- had.

> That's fine, but that's not the point of this bug.

*Yes it is*. Maybe you should go up and read the opening comment. I should know, I wrote it/opened this bug.

> (Or maybe it is, but that's not necessarily the direction that will get a
> ui-r+ from me…) The point of this bug (as I see it) is to move forward
> with a better UI, not to bring back any specific UI from the past.

Then you must have never bothered to read the opening comment. Too bad, because the loss of the movable search box was a huge blow for many, many people.

What really bugs me the most about this attitude of yours, Blake, is, most of the time in cases like this, developers will say something like - 'hey, it is free software, if you want the old behavior back, send us a patch, and as long as it is well written, works as advertised and doesn't introduce new bugs or change the desired *new* functionality, we'll work it in'. Well, the heavy lifting has already been done by Iago, and I'm sure Iago would be willing to work with you guys on any changes you wanted/needed to get this code properly integrated into the core. But it seems that you simply are unable to grasp the fact that not everyone is enamored with the new QFB as a total replacement for the little searchbox widget, and so cannot see the value/benefit. Sad, really.

Change for change's sake is not always for the best, and killing off the simple/movable message searchbox filter was a *mistake*, in mine and many others' opinions.