On 11 May 2010 13:13, Martin Wildam <email address hidden> wrote:
> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:04, Dmitrijs Ledkovs
> <email address hidden> wrote:
>> Here shutter needs to be running as a service/daemon. Can you keep it
>> open on another virtual desktop and assign global shortcuts to do
>> screenshots?
>
> Don't understand, what you mean. I don't know if I could assign
> shortcuts to a daemon and how the daemon could respond to them.
>

I meant to have the app loaded but without any notification
icons/windows anywhere.

For example gnome-do. When you autostart on login it is loaded into
the memory but there are no windows and icons for it. It simply
instantly appears on keyboard shortcut.

Similarly for the e.g. shutter app for your frequent usecase and slow
loading times. You should be able to autostart it without any icons
anywhere and when you need it you can either click on it's icon in
your panel or press shortcut to bring it up.

You can configure custom shortcuts to launch any app.


>
>>> One finished syncing because I might want to shutdown my laptop (already
>>> late to leave the office) and access that data later at home.
>> File a bug against Ubuntu One. Cuase the only way to know that it has
>> finished syncing files right now is to check the emblem on the file.
>
> Don't see why to file a bug - it is ok that way. - Or do you mean it
> should send an OSD message when finished (not sure if it doesn't do
> that already)?
>

Upto you. I didn't personally have any problems with knowing whether
ubuntuone is synced or not.

>
>> We have NotifyOSD for those (and higher priority notification do push
>> in front of chat notifications) the problem is that they fly away.
>
> Yeah, that's the pitty with those - if I look away for 10 seconds
> because getting a bite to eat or respond to a question of a collegue,
> I already miss that. That's why I do not really consider those
> messages.
>

+1

>
>> With your proposal it looks like each app should be able to create
>> app-indicator on the fly and remove it after the message has been
>> dealt with.
>
> Yes, something like that. Keep the icons all in one menu (like the
> me-menu you mentioned) but in message case show the icon next to the
> menu separately. - Just an idea - TBD.
>
>

Have you looked at the png mockup I did? It is attached to the
bugreport.... don't know if it was mailed or not though.

>> Or have what you propose a "system menu" (similar to sound menu, Me
>> Menu and Messaging Menu). But this system menu should not be visible
>> unless it has some items to deal with.
>
> Yes, but the menu should be visible always - so that I can click on it
> also to look at the last messages (newest maybe on the top and on the
> lower end a "more..." entry as last). If there are new messages the
> menu should have another color (maybe yellow instead of gray) and the
> new entries should also have that icon in front - just similar to a
> mail inbox).
>

This starts to sound like RSS reader or GWibber =) shall we make our
desktop just tweet those and read it via messeging menu?


Actually why can't it be part of the messaging menu? Create one more
entry "System" and add those under there. Just a thought....

But this will make messaging menu hard dependency. And we are
currently wandering away from the topic.

1) Can't start app in background without cluttering desktop with
windows and pointless "anchor-only" systray icons

This is a problem which should be solved at per-app level. E.g.
gwibber, empathy anchor themself onto messaging menu, but xchat
doesn't.

For the actual usecase (i've now tried shutter for the first time) I
think it really needs an appindicator. I've filed Bug #578884 against
shutter about that.

2) Disappearing NotifyOSD notifications

Note that majority of notifications are actually accessible after it is gone

1) Low battery power -> changing baterry icon fraction & warning
colour when critically low

2) IM -> messeging menu is green and you can click on it to see
exactly which chats you have missed

3) Restart requited (e.g. after kernel upgrade) -> power button changes to red.

So before we go off to make this system menu with log viewer we need
to figure out which messages / warnings we are actually missing. When
we have that list we can figure out whether we need a new "system
menu" or if we can it put those inside the power button menu and add a
menu item there "View system messages..." to see history of those.

>
>> Alternatively instead of adding yet another IndicatorMenu we can abuse
>> the system menu / me menu =)
>
> Please don't remove the system menu - that one is essential. The

the "system menu" is the one that doesn't exist yet =) and I'm a bit
of a minimalist, when there is nothing to report we shouldn't be
adding anything to the interface.

And i like to refer to it as "notifications menu" as you did in the
next sentence.

So let's settle on the language we are trying to figure out if we are
missing any important notifications, where to put them for user to
notice when (s)he is back and where to keep a log of them.

> me-menu could be iincorporated in the notifications menu by clicking
> with the right mouse button as I consider the me-menu basically
> configuration (beside the status message). That said, it does not take
> more space than previously when the user name was displayed next to
> the system menu icon. So I would keep it as a separate menu.
>

I don't think me-menu is good for this. First of all you cannot have
secondary click on any of the indicators (established design, right
click currently brings up gnome panel applet menu) And me-menu has
relationship to what's about "me" and not about any other disasters
that can happen.

>
>>> example if currently a syncing error that gets retried in a minute and
>>> only if 3 retries failed then drop the sync error with a higher
>>> priority). If then the user can decide for each application with what
>>> priority a notification popup or sound should appear and for which only
>> IMHO bad idea.... inconsistent and you will spend more time
>> configuring then finding this useful.
>
> In general for such questions: Everything should be configurable but
> the defaults should be good to fit 90 % of what the users prefer. But
> don't forget that interests or jobs of people might by very different.
> There might be support- and sales guys doing mostly email, chat and
> authors who write books first of all and don't want to be distracted
> by instant messaging (so don't bother about the me menu).
>

Me-menu (me-menu has only space to twit/change status message, set
status, open up chats accounts & ubuntuone account.)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu

Messaging-menu shows email, chat notifications:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu

Together with me-menu powerbutton is currently bundled the power
button which lets you exit your session.

Note that none of those are configurable the way you want them to be.
If you don't want to be distracted by MSN you would click MeMenu ->
Chat accounts -> Disable MSN. It doesn't seem to be able to be signed
in and have different statuses e.g. DND, Online, Away in msn, gtalk &
facebook respectivly.

You can choose global sound or global icon colour but you can't make
envelope flashing / not-flashing with different colours depending on
which network message came from (or not flash at all for e.g. msn)

So let's not discuss that cause it's a sealed deal now.

>
>> But Ubuntu One is not really a target here. Cause generally it works
>> and in case of low batter / shut down it should block shut down or
>> send notification e.g. "Low battery & Ubuntu One sync is in progress".
>> If the user is not there the computer will shut down anyways =)
>
> Don't worry about Ubuntu One here - it was a sample - if the internet
> connection is down sure that sync is failing - seeing, that it is not
> finished is completely sufficient.
>

Ok.

>
>>> an indicator in the system tray, the user can decide what is
>>> important.
>> Nah user doesn't need to decide anything =) cause I'm lazy and I don't
>> want to learn what possibly can happen to my system and weather I how
>> I want to find out about it.
>
> Yes, the user is lazy, but you have to differ between the standard
> person where ordering a book online at amazon is a challenge of at
> least half an hour and between highly efficient and GTD oriented
> people. If I get annoyed about innefficiency 3 times by the same thing
> I am going to change it if I can.
>
> Of course, setting up my work PC is not just doing the default install
> and that's it. E.g. I have a strongly configured compiz with mouse and
> keyboard shortcuts. All the applications from my panel also have
> keyboard shortcuts. Depending on current position of hand (mouse or
> keyboard) there is always a fastest way to get e.g. to firefox. And
> depending on the current task I am using more keyboard or more mouse.
>
>
>> Skype should be integrated into messeging menu and that's it. I do not
>> want to spend my time figuring out whether I want separate icons for
>> xchat, telepathy, skype & gwibber.
>
> By default they could be integrated, but I know people who strictly
> separate applications - e.g. use Skype for private and MSN for
> business IM. You have some fixed idea of how the UI should be because
> you think you know how people work and think. But the point is: People
> are very different, work in a very different manner and have very
> different jobs and focus. I have seen very weird things, believe me,
> but when trying to change people's behaviour you often find out that
> their behaviour was for good reason (not saying, that their workflow
> couldn't be improved).
>

Sure. Currently i use empathy for everything personal, and xchat for
development work. sometimes I'm logged in both and sometimes just in
one of them or none. When I click on the messagingMenu i know straight
away which ones I'm signed in and if I missed any messages.

If skype is part of the Messaging menu you can still have it
configured depending on your current "mode of operation" you are in
eg. "work", "study" or "socialising".

It doesn't need appindicator for that =)

>
>> I just want one place to change my
>> status (MeMenu) & one place to click on to open any of the pending
>> chats (Messeging Menu)
>
> There are people who want to set different status for different IM
> applications. Anyway I would also prefer to change it just once so by
> changing status through me-menu should change it everywhere. But this
> should not mean that I can't set the status differently in another IM
> application if I like.
>

You can open messaging-menu select a chat program and change status
there if you want it e.g. just for skype and not twitter,msn.

>
>> You have way to many icons in your panel..... Have you thought of
>> using gnome-do or netbook launcher by any chance?
>
> Yes I tried gnome-do and I don't like it. The icons are perfectly for
> me. If I would have more space maybe they would be even more. ;-) -
> Having an icon within the view with hotkeys in the tooltip is
> following the KISS principle and working perfectly. In Windows times I
> had those icons on the desktop and guess what: I stopped that on
> Ubuntu because it is simply too much work for me to click on the all
> minimize button to get to the desktop. Simply cne click too much.
>

You could have shortcuts to your applications & applet/shortcut to
"show my desktop" with netbook launcher running on the desktop.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UNR

It's easier to click bigger icons & you will be saving scrolling your
mouse all the way to the top.

So shortcut to show desktop & click huge icon for app can be quicker
then precisely hitting small icon on the panel.


>> to type shortcut and 1-3 characters to get any of my frequently used
> applications.
>
> typing 1-3 characters is way too complicated and I could make a typo.

well gnome-do has robust competition so you can make typos and my top
20 apps actually require only 1 character from me =) (i guess I'm luck
and very efficient)

> I have talked to a software designer who told me once: Everything that

I've once talked to a monkey and it told me that Perl is evil, use
python =) so what? That's a walse argumentation (it is because
wikipedia has a tag for that)

> is more than two clicks away is already too complicated to reach. I
> would say: Two clicks or two keys.
>

You need to measure time for the whole action & how hard is it to
remember it (muscle memory). E.g. emacs has shortcuts which are
two-three and sometimes four keys combos and it is very efficient and
can do a lot. You are probably a vim user it has it's advantages as
well but I personally type most of the time and not switching modes.

So "X clicks" or "X keys" is not a good argument. As with current word
processors for some actions you do remember how icons look like and
you click those but for some actions that you use rarely you remember
which submenu it is in (or after which one it is) and you go through
the menus even though a toolbar icon & shortcut exist. Naturally you
choose the fastest time and it could actually take more clicks/keys
then other methods.

I touch-type & laptop user with trackpad so for me gnome-do all the way =)