[MIR] mlterm

so you say you want to use mlterm instead of gnome-terminal by default for those languages? can you get a sign off by the desktop team for that? also explain how a seemless transition would be done. e.g. will gnome-terminal get removed if user goes to such a language?

CCing arne to comment.

set back to new once clarified

@Alexander: not instead, but in addition to gnome-terminal. RTL language users will know which terminal to choose.

how do they know?

it could be an additional choice in Language Selector next to "Translation" "Additional fonts" "input methods" and "spell checkers"

it could be "RTL enabled terminal (Mlterm)" but this is just an idea.

many RTL user will already know that Mlterm is better for RTL text, and it could be the default terminal without replacing gnome-terminal and it could have the name "RTL enabled terminal" in program menu

I don't think the people will have a problem to figure it out.

I prefer to not add an additional switch to language-selector, but install it for everyone who installs translations in a language which uses RTL scripts.
And surely it shouldn't replace gnome-terminal, just be an alternative.
Users who need to use a terminal and deal with RTL text, will know or figure out which one to use. mlterm has been pretty popular already in such circles, I assume.

>>Personal opinion<<

MLTerm is not a regualr GNOME application and therefore looks ugly and doesn't fit well in the (GNOME based) Ubuntu echo system. Look at it's scrollbar for example - it doesn't use the GNOME theme for drawing but use some old X decoration.
Moreover, I havn't seen many users using MLTerm. Simple users (non-programmers) don't need a terminal at all and those who need RTL terminals for specific reasons (for example, use grep on RTL text files?) know how to get MLTerm from the repos.

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 09:21:46AM -0000, Shlomil wrote:
> >>Personal opinion<<
>
> MLTerm is not a regualr GNOME application and therefore looks ugly and doesn't fit well in the (GNOME based) Ubuntu echo system. Look at it's scrollbar for example - it doesn't use the GNOME theme for drawing but use some old X decoration.
> Moreover, I havn't seen many users using MLTerm. Simple users (non-programmers) don't need a terminal at all and those who need RTL terminals for specific reasons (for example, use grep on RTL text files?) know how to get MLTerm from the repos.
>

I think you have a valid point. I will leave that jugdement to the
desktop team though. Seb?

 subscribe seb128

 - Alexander

"Simple users (non-programmers) don't need a terminal at all"
why do Ubuntu ships with one? developers will know how to get one

we have discussed this issue already in bug #562130

plus, do you have another solution?

Why can't users who need or want this just install it from Universe? I think it's a good project, and I'm glad folks support and contribute to it, but I don't see any reason that the current situation doesn't support these users just fine.

this is the final answer? no Arabic language when a user reach for Arabic language support from language selector?

is it possible to make this change for Arabic, Farsi, Urdu only? as Hebrew person seems to disagree?

I meant no RTL language support in terminal , even no choice to chose it? I know Ubuntu want to make things easier and simpler and language selector is a thing to prove it or some one could argue that any one can download translation, writing system, fonts from Universe.

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 01:12:44PM -0000, Usama Akkad wrote:
> I meant no RTL language support in terminal , even no choice to chose
> it? I know Ubuntu want to make things easier and simpler and language
> selector is a thing to prove it or some one could argue that any one can
> download translation, writing system, fonts from Universe.
>

I see two main use cases (please let me know if i miss something) for a
terminal nowadays:

 1. use console applications (vim, ncurses based apps etc) that have
    real user interaction

 2. use console to execute installation instructions or config file
    adjustments to change the behaviour of the system.

1. is really for advanced users and is not a core deliverable of our
   end user focussed desktop etc. images. Those are a minority and we can
   expect them to go to software-center etc.

2. does not require a RTL terminal as commands and config file name as
   well as content is usually in english like languages.

 - Alexander

many terminal application are being translated and that is good news for many language user but for RTL users this mean problem.

as I mentioned in my video comparison between Mlterm and Vte you will see unreadable messages from many APT related programs (apt-get ,apt-cache etc...) because they were translated into Arabic. and at TranslationProject.org there are many terminal software being translated. RTL user will have to read (package like egakcap)

some says why bother using terminal, will at least half of the help out there is using terminal commands. do you want to try the "ls" command and check how does VTE show your folders? سطح المكتب (desktop) will look like بتكملا حطس (potksed)

and the same with cd cat and nano. you can't use terminal apps dealing with RTL text probably.

in short every action with RTL text in your system using terminal will need a RTL capable terminal. so every time you need a terminal we need a RTL terminal

as I can see there is too many opposition to having RTL enabled terminal for RTL users. could we please have at least a suggestion when a localized system user try to open gnome-terminal that it has a known bug with RTL text and to suggest some thing else?

here is a simple comparison video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H_HYkyD7wc
and there more here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mlterm

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Alexander Sack <email address hidden> wrote:
>  2. use console to execute installation instructions or config file
>    adjustments to change the behaviour of the system.

I think you got it right but I would like to note (regarding 2) that
if a console program (with existing RTL translation) like apt-get, for
example, is used and the locale env vars are set to some RTL language
(by default) then the program output is unreadable (reversed) and I
guess this is the main motivation for people wishing to include
MLTerm. Possible solutions:
* Don't translate console applications.
* echo "export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8" >> ~/.bashrc

A third use case would be:
3. Some programs embed Terminal emulators (like Ubuntu's good'ol
Update Manager, used to display apt installation progress in a
console) and this issue is not resolved by using MLTerm since it's not
embeddable like vte is.